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"WINDS OF WAR" & "WAR AND REMEMBRANCE" (2 VIEWERS)
* Thread starter bobbd
* Start date Jan 22, 2007
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Who Replied?
* Jan 22, 2007
*
* #1 of 58
BOBBD
AUDITIONING
Joined Jan 22, 2007 Messages 7 Real Name Bob Drummond
I am always amazed at how little information or discussion can be found about
these two mini-series from the ‘80s, even on the internet. I guess I’ll
kick-start a thread here, and hopefully others can add some meaningful insight
or information or opinion.
For those who don’t know or remember “Winds or War” (WoW) and “War and
Remembrance” (WaR) were two big mini-series broadcast on ABC in the US. They
were directed by Dan Curtis (of Dark Shadows fame) and based on 2 novels of the
same names written by Herman Wouk. They tell the story of the fictional US Naval
Officer Victor Henry (Robert Mitchum) and how his friends and family intersect
with many of the major figures and events of the Second World War.
WoW (broadcast in 1983) was released on DVD in 2004 by Paramount. The video
quality is quite good for an early ‘80s TV show. It appears to sport a brand-new
digital transfer from original film elements. Those original elements appear to
be a bit dirty at times, especially on shots featuring obvious optical printing,
like subtitles or superimposed effects. But overall I’m quite please with the
video quality. The audio is clear, but rather bland. It’s a mono track with very
little dynamic range. I suppose that is par for the course for a TV production
of that vintage.
WaR (broadcast in 1988) was actually released on DVD first in 2003 by MPI.
Ironically, this younger series features a much worse video transfer—quite
possibly the same transfer used on the VHS release from the ‘80s. It’s dark and
dreary, with no contrast or detail. Not completely unwatchable, but a big
disappointment after the WoW transfer. The audio seems like an improvement, at
least at first. The first several discs contain a stereo track—at least the
musical score is in stereo. There are even some moments of actual dynamic range
in the score, but the dialog and sound effects seem to be mixed in the center.
However, several discs into the series, the sound seems to revert back to mono.
So is there a snowball’s chance in hell of some better releases in the future,
especially for WaR? The fact that both series were released on DVD with about
zero fanfare seems to suggest that we’ll have no more releases anytime soon (I
think I found 1 or 2 reviews for the WoW set and absolutely nothing for the WaR
sets). I think it would be a shame if this is the best we’ll ever get. Yes, the
series can be rather slow paced, it lingers in soap opera territory at times,
and there are some casting misfires, especially in WoW, but overall I think it
is a grand epic and possibly the biggest example of the bygone era of the major
mini-series. It also contains about the most graphic and horrific reenactments
of the Holocaust you’re ever likely to see. All in all, I’m rather surprised
both series seem to have been all but forgotten.
Also (one can dream) what about an HD release? I imagine both series were
finished completely on film, making an HD release a relatively easy thing to
accomplish, no? Perhaps WoW’s new DVD transfer was actually an HD one? Do the
big studios do any non-HD transfers nowadays?
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* Jan 22, 2007
*
* #2 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
I own both sets and am also a bit surprised at how little information is to be
found about them given how popular they were when aired. I think they've just
missed their time period and suffer when compared to the production values of
more modern films of the same period.
I own all three sets (War and Remembrance comes in two volumes). I think I have
mixed feelings about some of the cast changes, appreciating the recasting of
Byron Henry (the submarine officer), but never feeling that Jean Seymour really
captured Natalie as she's written in the book and played in the first mini.
She's a brassy New York woman and just is just too passive and quiet in the
second mini (not fitting the book at all). Likely because the character was
supposed to be a victim in that series.
* Jan 22, 2007
*
* #3 of 58
DARREN GROSS
SUPPORTING ACTOR
Joined May 16, 2001 Messages 518
Hi.
You're correct- these were both all finished on film, so HD transfers would be
possible. If the WOW transfer was recent, than it probably was done in HD if not
a higher format.
WAR doesn't use the same transfer as the VHS--they went back to the original 1
inch broadcast masters for the DVD. There is a quality bump from VHS, but not
near as much as you'd get with new transfers. Image-wise, WAR (and WINDS, to a
lesser degree) was filmed with a very soft, diffuse, smoky look, so there would
always be a little bit of softness to the image. That said, it would be nice to
see them looking more slick and polished than they do.
A main concern with WAR is essentially the running time. The somewhat limited
audience for the DVD, made the price-point very high, comparatively.
Unfortunately, new transfers were not in the budget, from what I'm told. With
30+ hours of material to re-telecine, it's a real budget-pusher.
On the audio side, the switch to mono, half-way through WAR was a broadcast
decision. There was a broadcast error during original transmission, that was
blamed (possible incorrectly) on the handling of the stereo channels. After this
happened, Dan Curtis made the decision to mix the rest of the in-progress parts
into mono, instead of stereo. So, stereo mixes don't exist for the second half,
sadly.
Hopefully, there will be interest from HD channels in broadcasting these, and
with that will come new HD transfers, but as no standard TV network has shown
any interest in rebroadcasting these in nearly 10 years, it's probably not as
near in the future, as one would hope.
* Jan 22, 2007
*
* #4 of 58
BOBBD
AUDITIONING
Joined Jan 22, 2007 Messages 7 Real Name Bob Drummond
Katherine, I've always preferred the WAR casting as that was the series I grew
up with and saw several times before I got the chance to see WINDS. I did
eventually read the novels and do agree that Ali MacGraw's Natalie is closer to
the intent than Jane Seymour's. I also think that Hart Bochner is vastly
superior to Jan-Michael Vincent, though Vincent definitely seems a more likely
son of Mitchum's.
Darren, thanks for the info. That's more than I've ever been able to find. Can
you shed some light on how the 2 mini-series were received by the public? From
what I've been able to glean, WINDS was a massive TV hit, even by 1983
standards, but that WAR was something of a disappointment. Though I've also read
that WAR peaked at 40 million viewers, and those are American Idol numbers
today.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #5 of 58
BRENT AVERY
SUPPORTING ACTOR
Joined Feb 19, 2002 Messages 747
This thread could not have been timed any better - I was in between buying the
latest releases and the Winds Of War boxset was staring me in the face quite
literally. I suppose more than anything it was the photo of Robert Mitchum that
got my attention. I'm in the middle of Horatio Hornblower and figured another tv
mini series couldn't hurt. So it is kind of interesting to suddenly pick up on
this in the last 2 days even though it has been out two years, and it's nice to
see someone bring it up so others can consider buying a copy to enjoy as well.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #6 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
Hart Bochner is infinately better in the role. I think the problem is that I
read the books first and saw the series in the correct order so I found the
discrepency between the Natalie I imagined and the one on the screen a little
disconcerting.
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* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #7 of 58
BOBBD
AUDITIONING
Joined Jan 22, 2007 Messages 7 Real Name Bob Drummond
Brent, before you begin WINDS, prepare yourself for the slow pace. It really is
from a different era of storytelling. It reminds me of golden era of BBC TV
drama, though with higher production values. The good news is that, even though
it is not uncommon for scenes to run 5 to 10 minutes, the drama can unfold at
its own pace. Characters actually have lengthy conversations about things!
Something that rarely happens in modern television, especially American
television.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #8 of 58
JEFF WILLIS
Senior HTF Member
Joined Jan 1, 2005 Messages 3,386 Location Dallas TX
Bob, great thread. Again, the HTF'ers jogged my memory about these 2 miniseries.
Brent, you said it I'll get WINDS at my next Amazon order. I remember enjoying
that series and haven't seen it since it originally aired. I've never seen the
sequel, WAR. Reading the xfr info here, I'm a little hesitant about getting that
one at present. Also, it would be a blind-buy but since I liked WINDS, I figure
WAR would be a virtual sure-thing for me. I'd also like to see Hart Bochner in
that role, since I thought he was excellent in another un-released early 90's
miniseries, "And the Sea Will Tell". (that's one I'd get in a flash if it was
available) I also remember Ali McGraw and thought she really caught the
character in the series.
I also seem to remember that WINDS was the more succesful broadcast (ratings)
than the sequel. According to Amazon, I see that WAR Vol's 1 & 2 are 1 disc each
compared to the 6-disc WINDS. Is that a typo or is the sequel that much shorter
than WINDS? Also, I wonder why the WAR price is considerably higher than WINDS?
Seems to be a little confusing for me at the moment....at Amazon, there are 3
listings for WAR:
1) WAR Parts Vol 1 Pts 1-7 1 disc?
2) WAR Parts Vol 2 Pts 8-12 1 disc?
3) WAR The Final Chapter Anamorphic 7 discs?
Is each set a separate part of the entire WAR miniseries?
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #9 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
> Jeff Willis said:
> I also seem to remember that WINDS was the more succesful broadcast (ratings)
> than the sequel. According to Amazon, I see that WAR Vol's 1 & 2 are 1 disc
> each compared to the 6-disc WINDS. Is that a typo or is the sequel that much
> shorter than WINDS?
> Click to expand...
WAR is considerably longer than WINDS. Each volume has six discs, so a total of
twelve discs.
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* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #10 of 58
BOBBD
AUDITIONING
Joined Jan 22, 2007 Messages 7 Real Name Bob Drummond
Jeff, WaR was released in two chunks: WaR(parts 1-6) and then WaR: The Final
Chapter (parts 7-12). When both sets were first released on DVD, they came in
over-size gift boxes with a color booklet, and one of the boxes also contained a
soundtrack CD. You can still find these big box versions on Amazon, but I think
they're discontinued, and only available used.
More recently, MPI released the discs without the big boxes, and I believe
they're a good bit cheaper, too. I haven't made enough posts yet to include a
URL to amazon in this post, but if you look, you should be able to find the
newer sets for about $60 to $70 each.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #11 of 58
FLOYDH
AUDITIONING
Joined Jul 13, 2006 Messages 5 Real Name Floyd
If memory serves, I seem to remember that a night or two before the initial
showing of "Winds", the network ran a 1/2 hour special called "Peace on Borrowed
Time" hosted by John Houseman. It was a historical "refresher course" for
viewers who might not be acquainted with European politics of the 1930's, the
interwar years. Can you tell me if this program is included in the "Winds" sets
as released? Thanks.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #12 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
> FloydH said:
> Can you tell me if this program is included in the "Winds" sets as released?
> Thanks.
> Click to expand...
No, the only special features on both series are retrospectives.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #13 of 58
CHARLES ELLIS
Senior HTF Member
Joined Jan 5, 2002 Messages 2,098
Let me put in my two cents regarding Ms. Seymour: if to some of you it seems
that she's too passive and quiet in WAR, please remember she's playing a woman
whose whole world has collasped around her- separated from her husband as he's
in battle in the Pacific, her son is in hiding, and she's off to Auschwitz with
her uncle, so naturally she would be browbeaten and numbed by the whole thing.
BTW, John Gielgud was much better than John Houseman as Aaron Jastrow. I'm
hoping for a new remastered collection with a possible 5.1 Dolby sound mix, and
more importantly, a lower price! They don't make miniseries like this any more-
and in the age of reality shows, I'd gladly take this or The Forsyte Saga (the
original, of course!) any day over Flavor of Love!
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #14 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
The problem Charles is that is NOT how she is written in the books. The charm of
her character in the book is how much she is still a fighter through all of it.
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* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #15 of 58
CHARLES ELLIS
Senior HTF Member
Joined Jan 5, 2002 Messages 2,098
But this is not the book! Besides, practically all of the TV critics of the time
agreed that Jane was a vast improvement over Ali MacGraw as Natalie. Comparing
the character in the book against the TV adaptation is like comparing apples and
oranges. Kind of like comparing Dorothy Gales from the book and film versions of
The Wizard of Oz- in the book, Dorothy was a little girl, not teenager as Judy
Garland played her, yet she made her performance iconic. Also, the characters of
Rick and Ilsa in Casablanca were much different from the original depictions in
the play Everyone Comes To Rick's- are Bogart and Bergman to be criticized for
that? Likewise with the differences between the literary Rhett & Scarlett as
opposed to the great performances of Gable & Leigh in GWTW.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #16 of 58
FLOYDH
AUDITIONING
Joined Jul 13, 2006 Messages 5 Real Name Floyd
Thanks, Katherine.
* Jan 23, 2007
*
* #17 of 58
KATHERINE_K
SECOND UNIT
Joined Jul 8, 2005 Messages 456
You opinion is your opinion. My point is that MacGraw was the more faithful
interpretation of the character to the books and Jane Seymore's performance
completely changes the character. I don't think when there are two actors
playing the same role it's invalid to question which one is closer to the
character from the original source material. It is a matter of preference.
* Jan 24, 2007
*
* #18 of 58
CRAIG S
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined Mar 4, 2000 Messages 5,884 Location League City, Texas Real Name Craig
Seanor
> More recently, MPI released the discs without the big boxes, and I believe
> they're a good bit cheaper, too. I haven't made enough posts yet to include a
> URL to amazon in this post, but if you look, you should be able to find the
> newer sets for about $60 to $70 each.
>
> > I'm glad I stumbled across this thread! I purchased WoW as soon as it came
> > out, but I've been holding off on WaR because of the oversized boxes &
> > exhorbitant price. Glad to hear MPI finally reissued it.
> > Here are the Amazon links:
> > War and Remembrance - Volume 1 - Parts 1-7 (1988)
> > War & Remembrance - Vol. 2, The Final Chapter: Parts 8 - 12 (1988)
> > Deep Discount DVD has the sets a bit cheaper than Amazon.
> > Click to expand...
>
> Click to expand...
* Jan 24, 2007
*
* #19 of 58
STEVEJKO
SECOND UNIT
Joined May 5, 2005 Messages 449
How appropriate it is that I come across this thread! I just started to re-watch
these two great series.
The debate on who played who better is something I gave up a long time ago. I've
come to the conclusion that everyone in the cast in both series offered
something unique to their character, though I do have my personal favorites.
Houseman's stubborn Aaron perfectly captures someone ignoring whats taking place
around him, yet something in Gielgud's performance strikes the perfect note as
an elderly man who "wasn't ready for adventure at his age" but is daring enough
to take the chance to escape. Bochner's Byron was perfect, but Vincent's
performance does have a certain cocky optimism (that is only appropriate for the
pre-war Byron). Ali MacGraw's Natalie is more how I see her than Jane Seymour's
interpretation, though Seymour is perfect in showing Natalie's determination to
survive.
I love these two series, even with some changes in the cast of W&R. I'd pick up
a remastered re-release in a heartbeat.
* Jan 24, 2007
*
* #20 of 58
BOBBD
AUDITIONING
Joined Jan 22, 2007 Messages 7 Real Name Bob Drummond
I agree with Darren that interest from a high-def TV network would make a
remastered SD and/or HD release more likely. I thought I heard that both A&E and
History are planning to go HD? Didn't one or both of those networks broadcast
WINDS and WaR in the past?
Perhaps a re-edit would help the show's marketability in this day and age? Both
series are broken up into several feature-length episodes of drastically varying
lengths. Episodes are 3+ hours, 2.5 hours, 1.5 hours, etc. And it doesn't seem
like these lengths have anything to do with dramatic structure, but rather how
ABC wanted to broadcast them in their prime-time schedule. Maybe if the show was
broken up into more conventional lengths, it would be easier for stations to
broadcast it. I imagine if both series were edited into 40+ minute installments
(to allow for a 1 hour slot with commercials) the whole series might even come
close to 65 episodes, the magic number for strip syndication.
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90s TV series never released on Home Video Tape trading?
* Anon16
* Jul 22, 2022
* TV on DVD and Blu-ray
Replies 1 Views 967
Jul 24, 2022
tsodcollector
T
The Avengers: The Emma Peel Collection (1965-1967) – Imprint Television #3
Unboxing
* Capt D McMars
* Feb 16, 2023
* TV on DVD and Blu-ray
2 3
Replies 43 Views 6K
Sep 18, 2023
Sadsack
TV ON BLU BEFORE I DIE - PRETTY PLEASE
* Nick*Z
* Nov 15, 2022
* TV on DVD and Blu-ray
3 4 5
Replies 92 Views 9K
May 4, 2023
jdee28
UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - Torn Curtain -- in 4k UHD
* Robert Harris
* Oct 28, 2023
* Blu-ray and UHD
2 3
Replies 40 Views 5K
Nov 30, 2023
Robert Crawford
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