www.msn.com Open in urlscan Pro
204.79.197.203  Public Scan

Form analysis
0 forms found in the DOM

Text Content

Former President Donald Trump's attorney on Sunday welcomed former Vice
President Mike Pence potentially testifying at Trump's future trial related to
his push to overturn the 2020 election -- but Trump's lawyer wouldn't discuss if
Trump will do the same.

John Lauro argued on ABC's "This Week" that Pence, who is a key figure in
Trump's unprecedented third indictment, could actually be beneficial to Trump --
despite Pence rebuking Trump for urging him to stop the certification of their
defeat on Jan. 6, 2021, when Congress convened at the Capitol and Pence presided
in a ceremonial role.



Lauro maintained that Pence, if called to testify, would agree that Trump wasn't
acting with criminal intent in seeking to stay in power and reverse his loss.

"Mike Pence will be one of our best witnesses at trial. ... I cannot wait until
I have the opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Pence," Lauro told "This Week"
anchor George Stephanopoulos.

"Based on what Vice President Pence will say, the government will never be able
to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump had corrupt or criminal
intent. And that's what this case is about," Lauro contended.

MORE: Criminal intent, free speech emerge as key issues in Trump's Jan. 6
indictment

Trump denies breaking any laws and has pleaded not guilty to the four charges in
his third indictment: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to
obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an
official proceeding and conspiracy against rights.

"This is a persecution of a political opponent," he claimed after his
arraignment in Washington on Thursday.




Pressed by Stephanopoulos on Sunday if Trump would be willing to go under oath
to challenge Pence's version of events, Lauro responded, "That's impossible to
say right now. What we have to see is what the Biden administration is going to
put on evidence."

Throughout Lauro's sometimes contentious interview with Stephanopoulos, he
repeatedly insisted that federal prosecutors will struggle to prove Trump acted
corruptly because Trump was not convinced the 2020 election was legitimately
conducted -- a view rejected by the courts and election officials -- and that he
was seeking legal advice on the best way to challenge the results.

"People disagree all the time about constitutional points, but nobody gets
indicted," Lauro said.

Special counsel Jack Smith anticipated such defenses in his 45-page indictment,
legal experts previously told ABC News as they weighed in on the case.

"The majority of the indictment is trying to establish Trump's knowledge that he
lost the election and his intent to overturn the election results," said Neama
Rahmani, a former federal prosecutor and president of West Coast Trial Lawyers.




On "This Week," Stephanopoulos pointed to Pence's own statements and how they
contradicted his former boss: "What Mike Pence has said all this week is that
what President Trump did was wrong and he knew it was wrong and he was pressing
him to do something that was wrong."



Pence has also said that Trump once criticized him as "too honest" for his
position that he had no legal authority to reject the 2020 Electoral College
results in his ceremonial role on Jan. 6. Trump, on social media, claimed on
Saturday that he never said that.

Asked by Stephanopoulos what will happen if Pence can substantiate that
exchange, Lauro sought to play it down.

"The issue was described in Mr. Pence's book [his 2022 memoir] with respect to
some of the legislation that was going on. And Mr. Pence said that he recalls
Mr. Trump saying that Mr. Pence's position on a particular piece of litigation
that was going on was hyper technical and hyper legal. That's a side issue,"
Lauro said. "No one is going to be concerned about that."



However, Pence could end up being a key witness against Trump, given his
firsthand knowledge of Trump's efforts to stay in office.

He previously spoke with a federal grand jury, under subpoena, and said on
Sunday on CNN: "I have no plans to testify. But, look, we'll always comply with
the law."

MORE: Many GOP voters remain undeterred by new Trump indictment

Lauro, on "This Week," said that while Pence disagreed with Trump, "He never
said it was criminal ... You may think that somebody is acting inappropriately
under constitutional principles. But Mr. Pence, who is a lawyer, never said to
Mr. Trump, 'I think what you're doing is criminal,' That's very important."

The back-and-forth goes to the heart of the Trump legal team's argument, that
the then-president always believed the 2020 election was stolen and had a First
Amendment right to say so while, as Lauro put it, "petition[ing] his government"
to intervene in on his behalf.

Smith appeared to offer a prebuttal to that argument, using the term "knowingly"
in the indictment 30 times, underscoring that Trump had been told his claims of
fraud were baseless before repeatedly urging allies to try to reverse the 2020
results.

Lauro's response on "This Week" was: Prove it.

"The defense has no obligation to prove anything. We put the government to its
test. The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump
had criminal intent," he said.

"This is a criminal case where they have to prove not whether or not he won [in
2020]," Lauro said, "but whether or not he was acting corruptly, whether or not
he was acting with a consciousness of guilt, with criminal intent."

ABC News' Alexandra Hutzler contributed to this report.




Continue reading


Sponsored Content

MORE FROM ABC News
3 dead in firefighting helicopter crash after midair collision with 2nd
helicopterRussian, Chinese ships patrolled 'near Alaska' but were not 'a
threat': US officialsGlacial break causes major flooding in Alaska, officials
issue emergency declaration
Visit ABC News
TRENDING STORIES
 1. “Hard not to look”: Christian woman ditches leggings because they encourage
    men’s “lustful thoughts”BuzzLoving
 2. Meg 2 Takes A Bite Out Of Oppenheimer In Surprise Box Office UpsetScreenRant
 3. YF-118G ‘Bird Of Prey’: The Stealth Aircraft That Changed Everything1945
 4. Trump’s moves to overturn 2020 election were ‘aspirational,’ not criminal,
    his lawyer arguesThe Washington Post


MORE FOR YOU



Donald Trump was in attack mode as he spoke to supporters Saturday evening in
Columbia, South Carolina.

The former president, not known for holding back against his enemies, was more
combative than ever as he spoke at a South Carolina Republican Party fundraiser
in the wake of his indictment on criminal charges related to his attempt to
overturn the 2020 election. While some moments were clearly scripted and focused
his rage against President Joe Biden and the Department of Justice, others were
not as he veered into attacks against Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and
Republicans tied to leadership in the Senate who have resisted his calls to use
their power to help him — both on January 6, and now, as he faces criminal
prosecution.




“These guys, what they’re doing with this election interference ... the Senate
needs to step up. The House is doing a lot of things…They have something on
Mitch McConnell,” the former president argued, presumably meaning either
Democrats or the Department of Justice, or both.



“There’s no way he’s doing this. They got something on Mitch McConnell.”

It was the kind of blunt attack, launched from the backyard of Senator Lindsey
Graham, that is likely to cause further headaches for the Senate GOP caucus,
which mercifully can avoid reporters’ questions about the matter until the end
of the August recess. Mr Graham has traded blows publicly with McConnellworld in
recent months, earning a vicious rebuke and accusations of flip-flopping from a
former top aide to the Senate GOP leader.

The remark could also be awkard for Senator Tim Scott, the other member of South
Carolina’s Senate delegation, who is running against Mr Trump for the 2024
Republican presidential nomination but has yet to take a strong line of attack
against the former president.










Mr Trump’s remarks about the House of Representatives “doing a lot of things”
refers to the efforts by the House Judiciary Committee to battle the Department
of Justice as well as prosecutors in Manhattan over their offices’ respective
prosecutions of Mr Trump; those actions by the Judiciary panel, however, have
largely amounted to show and have done little if anything to hinder the
investigations themselves.



Given the Democratic majority in the Senate, it’s not clear what else the
president has in mind for his allies to accomplish. Some individual senators
have taken to blocking appointments to various federal agencies until their
demands are met, but these actions have not yet been undertaken or endorsed by
GOP leadership.

Others attacked by Mr Trump during his speech on Saturday included his former
attorney general, Bill Barr, who has affirmed in public interviews that he
believes the Department of Justice’s prosecutions of his ex-boss to be
legitimate and serious, and Jack Smith, the special counsel leading the
Department of Justice’s prosecution of Mr Trump in two matters: The alleged
unlawful retention of classified material and other presidential records, and
the campaign to overturn the election ending on January 6.



His most scripted attacks were predictably aimed at Mr Biden however, whom he
accused once again of using his power to enrich himself and his family. The
charge has been leveled at his own family in the wake of their departure from
the White House, in particular given a massive Saudi-backed investment into his
son-in-law Jared Kushner’s business secured shortly after the end of his time in
government.

“Crooked Joe Biden only cares about enriching his family,” Mr Trump said. “I
care about enriching your family.”

“Under my leadership, we built the greatest economy in the history of the
world,” said the former president.“When I get back in office, I’m going to
reverse Bidenomics and restore the trajectory I created toward increasing this
country’s financial prosperity.”

Mr Trump was in Washington this past week for his indictment on charges related
to the 2020 election. He entered a plea of not guilty as the number of criminal
counts formally filed against him continued to climb, and immediately began
making statements about the investigation that have forced prosecutors to seek a
protective order from the judge that would limit what he can say publicly.

He continues to persist as the far-and-away leader of the Republican 2024
primary field, even as it appears likely that he and/or members of his legal
team could face further charges filed against them later this month in Georgia
as a grand jury investigation into his efforts to change election results in
that state comes to a head.

The former president and his allies continue to wrongfully insist that the 2020
election was “stolen” by Mr Biden even as every reputable expert and agency with
authority to monitor elections have said that his claims about the results are
false.

From news to politics, travel to sport, culture to climate – The Independent has
a host of free newsletters to suit your interests. To find the stories you want
to read, and more, in your inbox, click here.




Continue reading


Sponsored Content

TRENDING STORIES
 1. “Hard not to look”: Christian woman ditches leggings because they encourage
    men’s “lustful thoughts”BuzzLoving
 2. Meg 2 Takes A Bite Out Of Oppenheimer In Surprise Box Office UpsetScreenRant
 3. YF-118G ‘Bird Of Prey’: The Stealth Aircraft That Changed Everything1945
 4. Trump’s moves to overturn 2020 election were ‘aspirational,’ not criminal,
    his lawyer arguesThe Washington Post




MORE FOR YOU


 * © 2023 Microsoft

 * Your Privacy Choices
 * Privacy & Cookies
 * Terms of use
 * Advertise


Feedback